The Urgent Need For A Serious Libertarian Socialist Stance on Israel/Palestine
Hier kun je discussieren over The Urgent Need For A Serious Libertarian Socialist Stance on Israel/Palestine.
The tremendous attention that is now pointed towards the conflict shows the liberal ideology like never before, but even further it shows a continuation of antisemitism in Western-Europe and an unreflected peer pressure to fake solidarity with Palestinian people. The pro-palestine demonstrations are occupied by far-right Bozkut (also known as Grey Wulfs) Turkish groups. Radical Islamist are also accumulating and feel comfortable on these demos.
We have to regard antisemitism not as simply another form of racism, but as an ideological resentment unlike any other form of resentment. Antisemitism was the catalyst for the singular crime of the Shoah, the extermination of 6 million Jewish people and the destruction of jewish culture in Europe. The Shoah, committed by the Germans and their collaborateurs such as the Netherlands, is singular not because of the number of people murdered or the way they were killed, but because it was a campaign of extermination as and end in itself. It was not a peripheral aspect of National Socialist ideology, but the central tenet. Neither can National Socialism be understood if Antisemitism is not in the center of analysis, nor can capitalism be understood without a firm grasp of National Socialist ideology. After Europe was freed from German occupation by the allied forces, pogroms against Jewish people did not stop (the most famous being the Kielce pogrom) and large groups of Jewish people fled Europe to the soon to be established Israel. The establishment did not occur without reason a look into the history of over 2000 years of persecution and genocide should help to understand this narrative.
Whilst rightfully pointing out the eviction of Palestinian people in East Jerusalem and the bombing and killing in the Gaza strip, the perfomative international solidarity stopped when the next day and today when Hamas attacked Tel Aviv, leaving Jewish civilians dead. This clearly indicates the nationalist antisemitic narrative of most alleged pro-palestine activists. Further, synagogues in Europe have already come under attack in Germany 3 alone last night. Whoever attempts to explain that there is no relation whatsoever between antisemitism and antizionism should try again. Zionism in itself is not a homogenous ideology and Herzl can even be understood and is rightfully so by liberal Zionists as someone who aspired a self-determination of Jews within a national context, therefore leaving the possibility for a Bi-national state open.
The above mentioned aims to offer a Antithesis (without going too much into detail) to the current discourse.
To continue: Neither the racist Israeli state nor the antisemitic palestinian authorities can be a source for our radical left wing stances. They are simply reproducing anti-arab and antisemitic sentiments under which there is no possibility for common struggle. The disillusioned left that blindly follows the Palestinian groups, might have hope for a global proletariat in the middle east against western imperialism. If your proletariat includes antisemits, radical islamists, Iranian authorities, Assad and Erdogans gang I'm out, the world has become much more complex.
As libertarian Communists we need to stand up for the class interest of both populations and work towards a cooperation of progressive forces within the region. We need to strenghten our people on the ground and support projects of cooperation. The two state solution is impossible the settlements have again manifested that. The one state Palestinian solution is historically wrong, the one state israel solution is morally as well as historically wrong.
The status quo serves the interest of the ruling class and the military industrial complex lets work on uniting the progressive forces to build a common struggle against ruthless authority.
Other than that don't follow every source blindy and do your research (accounts of course for this article too) Share pics on instagram, retweets potentially follow a agenda that you don't want to reinforce. Jews all over the world are living in fear everytime the tensions increase in the region.
How can Socialists or
How can Socialists or anarchists claim a solution for a theological problem?
I think there definitively is
I think there definitively is the need for a libertarian socialist positioning for this conflict. It would both serve the people in Palestine and Israël.
I don't agree with you lumping anti-zionism and anti-semitism together. Yes, there are definitively anti-zionists who are anti-semitic. And this should be seen for what it is and criticized for that fact. But there is also revolutionary, internationalist anti-zionism, and you here in my opinion reproduce a pattern very comon in Germany (to which you refer a lot) and which makes criticizing certain products that follow out of zionism impossible.
So what is your suggestion? Do you have a position? A sollution to push for? Abolish both states, do away with the racists, sektarianists, religious fanatics and rabiat nationalists?
Thanks for the criticism!
Thanks for the criticism! Depending on the developments of course. Civil War yes? no? another intifada yes? no? out of civil wars like in Syria we had revolutionary movements like rojava (ofc that included a ethnic identity that detatched itself from a a nation state solution). You have more military western imperialist power at stake here, therefore it is not comparable in any sense. However, There are few and weak radical anti authoritarian bi ethinical movements that we should support by any means. Of course I am not coming up with a solution for the conflict here that would be too ambitious and too detached from reality. My argument is for a more nuanced debate without demonizing the whole jewish population and their right to the Land and without supporting the jihadist in Gaza. We will try to work on getting in touch with these movements (which will be hard currently) and bring their agenda to the debate in the country we live under currently, that where I see our position in the conflict.
I agree with a lot of what
I agree with a lot of what you say, but it makes sense that people do not condemn (as loudly) what Hamas and some other palestinians do, as this cannot be separated from their desparate position. There have been and still are more legitimate attacks on military israeli targets by palestinians. However, these are extremely ineffective because the palestinians have very simple weapons, whereas the israeli military is one of the most well armed in the world. So it is not surprising that in their desperation they go for more "soft" (civilian) targets, especially because civilians are targeted by israel as well (and many more palestinian civilians die than israeli).
This is not to say we should not condemn attacks on civilians. However, the fact that we are alot more busy condemning israeli oppression and aggression than desparate resistance, does not indicate anti-semitism.
Even here, in WW2, dutch resistance killed german civilians, eg blowing up an SS officer and his whole family. Is this ok? No. But like the palestinian resistance, it still deserve(d) our (sometimes very) critical solidarity.
Plus, while attempting the
Plus, while attempting the complete elimination of an entire people is relatively unique in history, it is not totally unique. E.g., the Romans attempted and (at least largely) succeeded this with at least one tribe (the Eburones). And there are also colonial examples on certain islands.
Very true and fair criticism.
Very true and fair criticism. I would like to suggest an ideology critical and conscious perspective. The dutch resitance (correct me if I am wrong) were predominantly communist. The Hamas has a charter that suggest the attack of jews world wide and the elimination of them in the region, plus an anti lgtbq and authoritarian alternative to the region.
The Dutch resistance was
The Dutch resistance was politically very diverse, from rightwing conservatives, over socialists and protestant christians to communists. I don't think you could compare any of the different groups with Hamas, they surely did not have such a charter. It's also a typical comparison of course: the Dutch resistance was fighting the nazi's, Hamas is fighting Israel. I strongly oppose such comparisons.
Hamas is also not the only
Hamas is also not the only palestinian resistance group, and the fact that it is relatively dominant now has alot to do with alot of the other (more secular) resistance group going into a 'peace process' with a state that very clearly has no interest in peaceful co-existence with the palestinians. The israeli state is going for a slow, piece by piece ethnic cleansing of or total subordination of arabs in their 'holy land. '
Hamas was even supported by Israel in its early days as a counter to Fatah and other PLO organisations like the socialist PFLP. See https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
PFLP is very weak and has
PFLP is very weak and has adapted a stances that are similarly problematic (also partly because of a lack of international solidarity). But being allied with Iran and Assad is what is being criticised in this article, further radical arabic nationalism was adapdet leading to the PFLP leaving the PLO due to opposition to a bi ethical/ bi national solution.
True, but it was just to say
True, but it was just to say that not all palestinians resisting israel are crazy antisemite islamists. Also, in the current situation as well as the previous intifiadas, it seems as if people are largely (or at the very least to some extent) organizing independently from the existing resistance organizations, forcing those organizations into a more aggressive anti-israel posture in order to gain some leadership over the autonomously acting parts of the palestinian population. Perhaps we should focus on that and try to support them. Although of course, just because they are acting autonomous does not necessarily mean that they are doing good things (the attacks on the synagogues in Lod come to mind, though i wonder if perhaps islamists arent doing that to highjack the movement or even Mossad could be involved, although that might be a crazy idea).
Do you know of organisations
Do you know of organisations that are not tankie nationalists? more libertarian or antifascist?
There are still the Anarchist
There are still the Anarchist Against the Wall but I don't know how active they still are.
https://crimethinc.com/2013/11/11/contemporary-israeli-anarchism-a-history
They never blowing up an SS
They never blowing up an SS officer and his whole family or killed german civillians.
I learnt about this attack in
I learnt about this attack in highschool. I cant find it online now.
What i can easily find online is a list of people killed by the dutch resistance, a great many of tem civilians. It includes people falsely suspected of collaboration, and even people who were hiding from the nazis and were deemed 'troublesome'. See https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_liquidaties_gepleegd_door_het_... .
As for the problem with the comparison of dutch resistance and palestinian resistance, obviously I am not saying that the israelis are like the nazis (although i would argue its a fascist state). I am saying war is a horror, and outgunned, outnumbered, out-organized resistance grouos often do very questionable or even downright nasty things in desperation. I could have also made comparisons with the vietnamese or algerian resistance, and im sure there are many others to be made.
Revolutionary Defeatism
In order to take a different position, the perspective needs to be clarified. Before even assessing the acts of the various factions in this civil war, their self definition as such needs to be examined, without accepting it a priori.
Both the 'palestinians' and the 'israelis', define their collective identities as nations (hebrew/arab) or as reliogious congregations (jews/muslims), making claims to land etc on the base of inheritance.
While such claims and their rationale are often shaky in their own right (who's ancestors there first, who's religion is the true one), the paradigms as such are questionable from a political perspective.
Both nation and religion have been used througout history to set the oppressed up against eachother to the great benefit of the oppressors. The historic and current political landscape of the middle east is the result of wars fought in the name of religious (crusades etc) and national (imperialism) supremacy.
All european (and other) pogroms of the past, including the Shoa, were committed in the name of religion and/or nation.
Seen the recent atrocities however, it is not an option to take an indifferent stance, even if both parties are clearly in the wrong by principle. It is also clear that the war will not end by either side 'winning' on the grounds of their national pretence.
There is a chances for the war to end however if it's physical actors actors (soldiers and insurgents) are refusing to man the trenches and turn their weapons on their own commanders instead of eachother.
This only leaves one category of people to support for the libertarian left: the 'defeatist', those who actively root for the defeat of their own polity as to topple it's ruling gang.
Er is een initiatief om een
Er is een initiatief om een palestijns/israelische
vlag te ontwikkelen.(nieuw concept)
Deze vlag moet een toekomstig harmonieus land symboliseren
wat als streefdoel zal fungeren.
Hoewel nog ver weg zal het uiteindelijk de enige weg zijn om
vrede te realiseren!
This sounds great in theory,
This sounds great in theory, but in practice this will never happen because what this means is that you are putting your hope in palestinians who, while israeli bombs rain down on them, will shout "lets leave this place! Lets stop resisting! Lets give in to the israelis!" These people will never get any mass support, and even if they do, the result will simply be the succes of israeli ethnic cleansing
What would you do ?
If I was stuck in either of these polities ('israel' and 'palestine') I would do the outmost possible to get hold of another passport and leave as soon as I could.
I would certainly not risk my life (or that of anyone else) in the name of some 'ancestral land rights'.
But if couldn't leave (which is true for most people stuck in Gaza or the west bank), I would not voluntarily become cannonfodder in a war to put up the fat cat leaders of hamas or fatah, who tend to send thjeir own children to 'study' in the US or Europe, while those of their followers breath teargas of get shot.
If any political activity, it would be to challenge the authority of the leaders on my side of the fence/wall.
At this point , leaving with another passport of even openly disavow the leadership is a lot easier in 'isreal', but not impossible as 'the letter from the youth of Gaza' proves:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/02/free-gaza-youth-manifesto-...
My support is with those who turn they cann0ong on their own genreals, not those who follow their orders
Again, great in theory
Again, great in theory perhaps, but no realistic basis for a mass movement.
What i would do? I dont know, i can imagine alot of different scenarios based on the specifics of my situation. Ranging from fleeing to suicide bombing a bus full of israeli school children. Its arrogant to presume you can dictate what people should do in a wildly different situation from your own.
In any case, people are doing what they are doing, and we can relate and take sides regarding that.
And obviously people are not actually fighting over ancestral land rights, that is just the ideology in which they express a life and death struggle, for their lives and those of the people they love.
Quote: "What i would do? I
Quote: "What i would do? I dont know, i can imagine alot of different scenarios based on the specifics of my situation. Ranging from fleeing to suicide bombing a bus full of israeli school children."
You're a sick fuck.
Yes, sick conditions turn
Yes, sick conditions turn people into sick fucks. No one is born wanting to suicide bomb a bus full of children. But if your children, your friends, your whole family is killed and everyone you know is threatened with ethnic cleansing or worse, then you start to get sick ideas.
Guess who's in chrge then
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY
Paley is a TERF.
Paley is a TERF.
Religious fanatics turn
Religious fanatics turn people into sick fucks.
Religious fanatics get to
Religious fanatics get to turn people into sick fucks in sick conditions. Ever wondered why mass secularisation in Europe was at the same time as the highpoint of the welfare state?
Not in my name
The 'realistic basis for a mass movement', as to say 'the ideology in which they express a life and death struggle', has not really worked out for either side so far. People that could be colleagues, friends and enven comrades are killing eachother, while those who foster such ideologies are safe in their seats of power.
For the rest, i can not 'dictate' anything, but I can decide to whom I extend solidarity. And tht's certainly not types who ' suicide bomb a bus full of school children' (is that what an ' ideology in which they express a life and death struggle' makes people do ? what about 'their lives and those of the people they love' ?).
So i take sides: I am with those who will not fight their 'nations' battles, but instead forsake their 'birthrights' for peace and equality for all, regardless their tribe or religion.
For example 'israeli' anarchists against the wall, who confront the IDF to protect 'palestinians', the refuseniks who will not bear arms as IDF soldiers, or the Gaza Youth Breaks Out, who stands up to bearded biggots who curtail their lives and wants to send them to battle as their cannonfodder.
no war but class war
Fair enough. You definitely
Fair enough. You definitely make valid points.
I just cant expect people who are under constant external threat, oppression and regular violent attack to be more interested in confronting their own leadership instead of their attackers. And i cant imagine I would be either, in their shoes. Though of course it would be cool to combine resistance against israeli occupation with resistance against groups like Hamas, if Israel then attacks for the millionth time and the guy beside me is an islamist fighting back, i would fight back against israel with him, and not against the islamist.
For the same reason i work together with leninists against capitalism. Its a prioritisation of enemies. But sure, there is alot to be said for your position. Lets see in practice which is best. Right now people are getting fucked regardless of their position anyway.
Leninism is state-capitalism.
Leninism is state-capitalism. So you fight with capitalists against capitalism?
The historical, actual form
The historical, actual form leninism turned into was state capitalism. But ideologically, when you talk to leninists, they speak of worker control of the means of production and council-democracy - i.e ideologically they are anti-capitalist.
You obviously have no clue
You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. It doesn't matter what they are talking about, ideology sucks. Their organisational model for society inevitably leads to state -capitalism. This was proven again and again. Anyway, good luck with the islamists!
Now or never
in moments when your own leadreship is busy with outside threats, that they are weakest, a real good moment for regime change.
Also: these are the moment where the most unpopular leaderships will use exactly your arguments to shut up any critics.
That's what's happening in 'isreal/palestine' on both sides at the moment:
Netanyahu was about to get convicted for corruption and possibly go to jail, and Hamas was about to loose a Gaza election they have delayed for 10(!) years in a landslide.
And guess what saves them AGAIN: the 'great patriotic war'!
The square root of -1
But that is the whole point. The leadership is not weakest when under outside threat, it is the strongest. You can try to make opposition against them, but to the extent that the outside threat is actually felt by the people (which in the case of the palestinians is so in an extreme way), they will rally behind that leadership for protection and retaliation. An opposition force can only hope to do away with the current leadership, if it ALSO or better to a greater extent seems able to protect people and retaliate against the external threat. This is why Hamas got more popular than the PLO - because they are more extremely anti-israel. This is why Hamas is shooting masses of rockets now, because parts of the palestinian population are autonomously acting against israel, presenting a threat to Hamas' monopolisation of the resistance. In no way can I see how a defeatist position could gather any substantial support, as it does the exact opposite. This is not a war between to empires, where a peace can be declared and the troops can come home (with maybe the loss of some territory): there is nowhere to retreat to, no home for soldiers to return to, because palestinian homes are under attack.
You make valid points, but in my estimation they come down to an impossible strategy, that can only work in theory. Like how Trotskyist arguments always flow: IF only there was a mass revolutionary party with The Correct Line, then we would overthrow capitalism! Very true, but this will never happen. It is the square root of -1: a mathematical impossibility (since minus times minus is plus).
Differentiation
Note that this is not about what the 'palestinians' should do, but about the position that libertarian socialists should take.
It's not a big question if they (we?) should oppose the IDF bombing the ancient City of Gaza. We should oppose the bombing of all Cities always.
For the rest, giving uncritical support for 'palestine' instead of for the victims of oppression and millitary aggression, including shouting religious and nationalistic slogans, together with people with quite reactionary values, is not really a good idead (i'll leave this to the sovjet style anti imps). That would be not so diffrent from the uncritical support that some give to 'israel' (in the name of democracy and what not), including hunting those who refuse to do so an anti semites.
Yes, but i dont think the
Yes, but i dont think the position of libertarian socialists should be unrelated from the actual conditions on the ground. Especially since taking a position should have material consequences, and not just be an abstract idea we spout on indymedia and instagram.
For the reasons mentioned, our position should be to support the palestinian resistance in general (while being critical of nasty tendencies and tactics within it), and support (more) ideologically sympathetic resistance groups within it. And not condemn people for fighting back against israeli aggression in general, and condemn (more) ideologically sympathetic resistance groups for fighting alongside nasty people within the palestinian resistance. In favor of a 'revolutionary defeatist' position that is totally alien to the palestinians, for good reasons. Because, in the absence of a a broad defeatism in israel, it will just end in palestinians' ethnic cleansing. And there is no sign that there is or will be such a movement of any significant (let alone decisive) power in israel.
I'm also starting to feel that the underlying problem of your position is an idea of equivalence between israeli aggression and palestinian resistance. There is not. First of all, because it is clear which side is the aggressor (Israel), at least in the last 50 years or so. Second of all, because the israelis have one of the most advanced militaries and economies in the world, and the palestinians are extremely empoverished, have no airforce, no navy, no tanks. Only infantry with basic weaponry.
And of course we should generally oppose the bombing of cities. But i wont prioritise telling palestinians they shouldnt shoot rockets at israeli cities. It's the only way they currently have to make israelis feel they are actually in a war. Otherwise the conflict would be limited to the palestinian areas. And it's clear that, at least currently, most israelis don't give a fuck about palestinian lives.
Meanwhile on the ground
At this point, I don't quite see how either position could make a difference on the ground immediatly, nor do I get the impression that all the fervent sympathizers of EITHER side are even interested to understand whats going on on the ground at all.
Note the in times of relarive peace, 'palestinians' and 'israelis' are part of the same economy and society at large. As the news of the last days show clearly, while most citries have a majority one way oir the other, they are all MIXED. Often the mix is more complex than what meets the eye.
The hebrew part is split in various factions, roughly along the lines of religious and secular, and so is the arab part, whereby there is big groups (like the haredi or some salafis) who will not support their respective polity at all, even though they are (theoretically) protected by it.
Furthermore, there is considerable amounts of (mainly young urban people) from both sides who covertly or openly flout the traditional divisions and hang out on the other side of the fence/wall, or for political reasons (as to support the victims of their 'own' sides aggression), or for personal ones (becasue there is cool stuff going on there they want to parttake in)
check out this:
https://www.thenationalnews.com/arts-culture/art/solidarity-and-what-it-...
'“There’s a framing to Palestinian art internationally. People want to see the suffering,” says Yazid Anani, one of the curators involved in the Qalandiya International biennial. “They want to see the wall, they want to see checkpoints, and they want to see the Israelis. Less has been done on the status quo of the Palestinian Authority and its troubling construct.”'
People like this are the biggest threat to the warmongers and the identities they force on others as to make them better cannonfodder and stay in power endlessly. These are the people we should support
Het zoeken naar verklaringen
Het zoeken naar verklaringen het zoeken naar identificatie wie ben ik waar hoor ik bij ? Verder het beoordelen wat belangen zijn wat je persoonlijke belang is.... Etatisme ook dat nog en wat denk je van Nationalisme. Met Nationale vlag zwaaien het " Wij Zij denken " ... De Staat zo als ik het me herinnerd te hebben gelezen een tamelijk recente uitvinding. En die Klassen Strijd ? Strijd als uitgangspunt leid denk ik tot nog meer strijd dat houd nooit op. Biologisch determinisme dan ? Opgewonden jonge mannen die met dingen gooien. Emoties woede verdriet.
Daar bij speelt de docu die ik zag over corruptie waar blijft al dat geld dat naar Gaza gaat ? Tot dat de vijand verslagen is.... Voor wel karretje laat jij je spannen ? Weinig te eten niks te doen geen werk geen uitkering. Gaan lopen dan maar richting .... daar is het beter ? " Ik wil trouwen en daarom heb ik geld nodig ! " O ja waarom wil je trouwen ? Is daar in het Midden Oosten ook nog een issue. Ideologie.... Wat is mijn ideologie dan ? Dondert op met je vlaggetjes godsdienst klassen strijd Nationalisme gevechten en geschreeuw op straat.... Duizend bommen en granaten dondert op met je militarisme.
Dondert op met je huwelijk. Het establishment de school al die instituten al die drog argumenten al die irrationaliteit.... Basis behoeften een dak voedsel en graag nog wat extra s en dan ? Je afkeren van al dat geschreeuw van al die ellende . Autonomisme dan ? Weer zo 'n idee en hoe pakt da tin de praktijk uit ? Is daar weer het recht van de sterkste ? Individualisme dan maar ? Maar toch merendeels jongens jonge mannen moeten leren rekening te houden met de gevoelens van anderen en hun " strijd " niet naar de straat te halen mensen worden ongerust en bang van al die agressie. Dat geldt ook voor die soli demo voor " Palestina ". Daar bij wat haalt het uit als je in Utrecht gaat staan schreeuwen "voor Palestina " ? Niks.
Ook rekening houden met de
Ook rekening houden met de omgeving bij " buiten activiteiten " wat is de impact van al dat lawaai op natuur en milieu ? Zou een overweging moeten zijn. Bijv. een stadion vol met schreeuwende mannen veel lawaai het transport er naar toe enz. Ik ben erg voor kleinschaligheid de menselijke maat.
goed initiatief
Toch vind ik het initiatief om een nieuwe Palestijns/Israelische vlag te ontwikkelen positief.
Ben het ermee eens dat een gedeelde staat de enige en juiste weg is naar vrede !
Het mag op dit moment er allemaal vreselijk uitzien maar de hoop moet blijven !
Zodra de vlag beschikbaar is bestel ik ereen.