a statement of self-criticism and self-punishment
Hier kun je discussieren over , a statement of self-criticism and self-punishment .
I hope it is not too late, but now is the time to face some issues, and take responsibility and criticize myself. Although these issues have not yet been made public, I intend to take the initiative myself and address these issues publicly. Patriarchy is a culture, we cannot change this culture only by removing people, but trying to change people (if these people are open to change) can bring about cultural change. I hope that I will be an example so that other people who are in a similar situation to me, instead of denying everything, admit their mistakes and change.
From the beginning, I have to say that I don't intend to blame the victims but I intend to take responsibility and understand my behaviors, which considered problematic. For those who aren't informed, I have been accused for rape and sexual harassment; These accusations have been made by some persons (women) who are active in the anarchist space of greece. Out of respect for the privacy of these individuals, I do not intend to go into too much detail, as I am aware that what I say may offend them further, amd I don't want that. It is a patriarchal culture that always strongly denies these accusations, but I, as an anti-sexist, do not intend to. It is the behavior of the state that oppresses the victims, and I, as an anarchist, do not intend this. I want to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them again. Today I accept this very difficult responsibility and publish the accusations against myself. I want the victims and comrades to know that I remember my mistakes, and I have realized them. And I apologize to the victims.
On April 2020, I was informed by some comrades that a [person Y] has been claimed that she was raped by me. In the beginning I denied such a accusation, and tried to find out more information. Even I tried to meet this with this [person Y] again, but unfortunately it never happened, so I never heard rape accusation from this [person Y] by myself (I have meet this [person Y], and in that time she just accused me for sexist behavior). About the rape accusation all I knew was the information that I got it from comrades around of me. A few weeks after the accusation was made, I was forced to leave Greece due to the cancellation of my political asylum by the Greek regime. Fleeing me from Greece caused me to be completely get out from the anarchist space of Greece, and not being able to know enough about what was going on. I arrived in the Netherlands in July 2020, and a few months after arriving in the Netherlands, I began my political activity in the Dutch anarchist space. Although I was aware of a rape charge, I hid it from my comrades and did not tell them anything. That was a mistake, and I am ready to take responsibility for such a mistake.
As I am in danger of being extradited to Greece in the Netherlands, this has led to the publication of information about my case in the international anarchist spaces. Following the news of my extradition case in the international anarchist spaces, some people informed comrades in the Netherlands about the rape accusation on me. After Dutch comrades were informed about such a accusation, the dutch comrades invited me to a meeting on this accusation, and in this meeting I claimed that I am completely unaware of this accusation, which was not true because I was aware of this accusation. To be honest, I did not know much about the details because of what I explained at the beginning, but I knew about the accusation and I hid it. That was a mistake, I wasn't enough honest with my comrades, and I am ready to take responsibility for that. Over the past few months, many political groups and individuals have defended and supported my political activities and my extradition case. These groups and individuals had no knowledge of the truth of this accusation against me, these groups and individuals are not to blame. Therefore, no one should blame these groups and individuals. All the responsibility is with me and all is my fault.
Last month, some comrades and individuals from the Netherlands traveled to Greece to spend their summer holidays in Greece. During this trip, these comrades and individuals realized the truth of the existence of accusation against me, and heard even more accusations against me, including sexual harassment.
Intentionally I never intended to rape or sexually harass someone, for me in the sexual stuffs, always no means no. But sometimes we hurt others without understanding it, so at the moment it doesn't matter what was my intention since these victims felt it as rape and sexual harassment. I believe them and I want to be in solidarity with them as well.
As taking responsibility and having self-punishment for the accusations and my mistakes, I completely leave the political movement, and during this period of time I'll work on myself and will try to change more towards a better person; I hope the movement will give me a chance in future to be able to come back.
[edit: chunk of text deleted on explicit request by concerned person for privacy reasons]
Probably the majority of comrades in the Greek political space are aware of my political activities, political positions and attitudes, something that has shaped my activity in the Greek political space over the years. These incidents led to political and violent clashes with some sections of the Greek anarchist space, and in fact created many individuals, political groups and positions against me and my political activity. To be clear, I have no doubt about the honesty of the victims, but I cannot believe that the individuals and political groups with whom I had political and violent clashes did not use these accusations to attack me politically and to advance their political interests. Because of the security of these individuals and groups, and the regime's failure to use my words against them, I do not intend to name these individuals or groups, or what our political differences were for, but I am sure many comrades know. For the comrades who know, I admit my mistakes in dealing with these people and groups, I made many mistakes, but we must not forget that they did not make less mistakes than I did. But I admit my political mistakes, but will they also admit their mistakes? although because of security reasons for all of us, I can't publicly make self-criticism and express myself but I want my comrades and these people/groups to know, that I understandood my mistakes and made self-criticism. If I looked at things then as I do today, I would certainly behave differently, especially towards those individuals and groups with whom I had political conflicts. I apologize to these groups / individuals as well as my comrades. However, we all know that mistakes are part of learning. It is true that I made many mistakes and had problematic behaviors, but let us accept that the Greek anarchist space from feet to head is full of mistakes and is seriously problematic. Instead of blaming me for everything and using me like a toilet paper to clean your hands, face your dirty hands. I admit my mistakes, you also admit your mistakes. What is not found in Greek politics or is found very rarely is self-criticism. In fact, this is one of the main reasons for the existence of mistakes and problems of Greek political space.
Due to my political positions and activities, I currently have a lot of political responsibilities, especially the political responsibilities I have towards some groups and comrades in Greece. Since I am leaving the political movement as a self-punishment, I cannot fulfill these responsibilities. I apologize, but they are always in my thoughts and I love them and they'll be always in my heart. We will probably meet again, maybe in prisons or struggles, I still adhere to the political way and the political ideas we had, and I will never regret doing them. Surely that time I will blame myself more then for not being able to fulfill my responsibilities as I should. Maybe if I could do the responsibilities that were given to me, my comrades would not be in such a difficult situation today, and I am also to blame for your hard life, and I accept that responsibility. My irresponsibility, and not being honest enough with my comrades, dealt a heavy blow to the struggle. In some cases, it even sabotaged the struggle. Some of these things may be unforgivable, at least I can not forgive myself. Some comrades and political groups gave me everything, but I was not committed enough. It was selfish and my stupidity, I apologize for such behaviors.
Probably some comrades who have personal connections with me will put doubt on the accusations and blame the victims, which already happened. I ask those comrades to prioritize the political issues than personal connections. This is the culture of liberalism that identify everything in personal connections, we are anarchists/leftists, so we need to sometimes forget the personal connections and just take stand according to the political things. Although many comrades are disagree with me to publish such a statement because they believe it is a political suicide, but I believe the international movement (particularly those who supports me have right to know these things). Authoritarian behaviors is not just creating the state but it can be the unequality of information between the people, so we need to give information to our comrades. I ask the movement (particularly those who supports me) to give space and platform to the victims to be able express themselves freely.
More information could be expressed in this statement but since it is just a self-punishment and self-criticism statement, I decided to not mention them. I am aware that the states, fascists and enemies will use this statement but still I believe that it needed to be published.
[person X]
11 August 2021
You really don't know when to
You really don't know when to just shut the fuck up do you? This tirade of bullshit isn't just embarrassing, it's disgusting. You are a rapist, with multiple additional sexual assault allegations. You knowingly covered this up on many occasions using deceit, threats and manipulation. Now that your absolute scumbaggery is public knowledge, your first action is to spew out this pathetic sob story to try and defend yourself? You repeatedly claim to be taking responsibility, yet you make every excuse you can to try and justify your actions and paint yourself as innocent.
Let's run through some of the finer points in this garbage:
"Although these issues have not yet been made public, I intend to take the initiative myself and address these issues publicly." - This is false. It is now widely known throughout the leftist scene in the Netherlands (as it is in several other countries) that you are a rapist. You did not make this post to be honest and transparent, it is clearly a last desperate attempt at salvaging your reputation.
"Patriarchy is a culture, we cannot change this culture only by removing people, but trying to change people..." - No, we can (and should) challenge patriarchal culture by having zero tolerance for rapists like yourself. Of course people can change and learn, but none of your actions to date have indicated that you will. It is safer for everyone that you are excluded.
"It is a patriarchal culture that always strongly denies these accusations, but I, as an anti-sexist, do not intend to." - Hold on... You, a literal rapist, are framing yourself as an anti-sexist because you aren't denying being a rapist anymore (after already being widely exposed), even though you spent the last year denying it? Incredible.
"Today I accept this very difficult responsibility and publish the accusations against myself." - Aww, I'm sure it must be so 'difficult' for you :(
"On April 2020, I was informed by some comrades that a [person Y] has been claimed that she was raped by me. In the beginning I denied such a accusation, and tried to find out more information. Even I tried to meet this with this [person Y] again, but unfortunately it never happened, so I never heard rape accusation from this [person Y] by myself (I have meet this [person Y], and in that time she just accused me for sexist behavior). About the rape accusation all I knew was the information that I got it from comrades around of me." - This whole section is just you carefully explaining the story as if you had no idea what was going on the whole time, and were merely uncovering vague 'accusations' against you. Your framing is obviously to give the general impression she might be lying without explicitly saying it.
"Although I was aware of a rape charge, I hid it from my comrades and did not tell them anything. That was a mistake, and I am ready to take responsibility for such a mistake." - No, hiding this was not a 'mistake', it was a carefully calculated series of choices you made intentionally to protect your reputation.
"... these comrades and individuals realized the truth of the existence of accusation against me... " - That's a very slippery way of saying 'realized I'm a rapist'...
"Intentionally I never intended to rape or sexually harass someone... " - Sorry, what!? You never *intended* to rape anyone!? You're seriously trying to imply you raped someone, but only by accident!? Get fucked.
"As taking responsibility and having self-punishment for the accusations and my mistakes, I completely leave the political movement... " - Just as you aren't taking responsibility, you also aren't 'leaving' the movement; you've been kicked out, it is different, stop lying.
"I hope the movement will give me a chance in future to be able to come back." - Ahahahaha no.
"The differences between cultures in west and Middle East are probably a part of the reasons that I have done many mistakes in my political life in west." - This is a terrible defense. I know a lot of people from the Middle East and none of them are rapists. Absolutely no excuse.
"I want the movement to see the problems more rooted and cultural, than one person being targeted and blamed for everything." - Yes, patriarchy is a systemic and cultural issue. No, you are still to blame for being a rapist. Stop trying to worm your way out of this.
"It is a fact that in addition to many mistakes in my political life, I have brought many achievements and struggles to the movement. I believe we shouldn't ignore all these struggles and achievements just because of the mistakes." - You're saying we should cut you some slack for being a rapist because you turned up to a few demos? Dickhead.
"... I don't intend to victimize myself... " - Oh really? You had me fooled. In fact, this paragraph is entirely you victimising yourself in a feeble attempt to garner sympathy. Yes you've had a shit time, yes fuck all governments... Anyway, how is this relevant to the fact you're a rapist?
"... I have been the victim of rape too, ones when I was 8 years old, and 3 times when I was a teenager." - I have also been raped. I know many people who have. This is not an excuse.
"As queer and non-binary person, I have been a victim of patriarchal culture as well." I am also queer, non-binary, and have been a victim of patriarchal culture. I know many people who have. This is not an excuse.
"Although I do not intend to link racism, being criminalized and discriminated directly to the accusations against myself, but it is a fact that I, as a non-white immigrant, have already been criminalized and discriminated by the states and white society. in fact from the beginning that I entered Europe I was seen as an repist, harasser, stealer and ect. Non-white immigrants are the most easy target to be accused, blamed and attacked for these cases. From my experience, the anarchist spaces in the west in general are very racist and full of privilege/bourgeoisie people. In white standards in Western political spaces, non-white comrades are greatly discriminated against. We are never enough for these white standards, and we are always on the sidelines. Even in cases of rape or sexual harassment, many white men are quickly acquitted, or their case is secretly investigated with their presence. Because they are white, and they have special powers and privileges in Western political movements." - Yes I agree. Racism is bad, systemic, and exists in leftist spaces. Meanwhile, you're still a rapist, and this is not an excuse.
"I have to say that when I was accused of rape in 2020, I wasn't invited to assembly, and no one allowed me to talk about what happened except three or four comrades, I was practically voicless." - Not enought sympathy for the poor voiceless rapists? Seriously? Also you were literally one of the most vocal people in the scene, shut the fuck up.
"... I cannot believe that the individuals and political groups with whom I had political and violent clashes did not use these accusations to attack me politically and to advance their political interests." - Oh I'm sure they did. Maybe you shouldn't have fucking done it then, yeah?
"For the comrades who know, I admit my mistakes in dealing with these people and groups, I made many mistakes, but we must not forget that they did not make less mistakes than I did. But I admit my political mistakes, but will they also admit their mistakes?" - Horrible false equivalence. Also you covered it up for a year. Also you still aren't really admitting it.
"However, we all know that mistakes are part of learning." - Holy shit, raping someone is not simply a 'mistake' on the path towards learning not to be a rapist!
"It is true that I made many mistakes and had problematic behaviors, but let us accept that the Greek anarchist space from feet to head is full of mistakes and is seriously problematic." - Lmao, you really arguing 'How can you hold me accountable for doing bad things when other bad things also happen?'
"Instead of blaming me for everything and using me like a toilet paper to clean your hands, face your dirty hands." - Omg, surely the irony of you telling everyone else to 'face their dirty hands' doesn't elude you, right? Nobody is blaming you for 'everything', you are being blamed for the rape that you did. Nobody else did the rape you did, because you did it, so you are to blame. Are you finding this too complicated?
"What is not found in Greek politics or is found very rarely is self-criticism." - Mirror. Look in it.
"Since I am leaving the political movement as a self-punishment... " - Stop, you were kicked out. Stop. Stop.
"... I cannot fulfill these responsibilities." - Good, fuck off.
"Probably some comrades who have personal connections with me will put doubt on the accusations and blame the victims, which already happened. I ask those comrades to prioritize the political issues than personal connections. This is the culture of liberalism that identify everything in personal connections, we are anarchists/leftists, so we need to sometimes forget the personal connections and just take stand according to the political things." - Once again, you're implying the accusations might be false, which they aren't. And yes, contemporary Western cultures are highly individualist, and liberalism does tend towards placing emphasis on individual actions rather than the structural characteristics of the system. None of this affects the fact you are a rapist, stop trying to distract from it.
Seriously this post is shameful, and stands as a testament to your despicable character. You are a rapist and a manipulator, and you are not welcome in the leftist scene. Goodbye.
[Z] stop it, we all
[Z] stop it, we all know it's you! Everyones are aware you got problems with [person X]. Cuz he kicked you out of a assembly for your problematic behaviors! There're some stuffs I don't accept in his statement. but you completely say bullshit & unreal things.
[Edit: naam weggehaald].
Lmao thats such bullshit. I
Lmao thats such bullshit. I didn't write that response, I am not going to waste my time on writing that massive stuff, I don't even need to do that, I have nothing to achieve from writing that. Some people really think that I was the only one who had problems with him? lmao. I don't even give a fuck about that incident, I have been in way worse fights and had no issues with the people I fought with. And everybody already knows what actually happened in that assembly, don't try to bullshit to twist the story, only a fucking idiot would believe what you wrote, anybody who was in that assembly can also confirm that what you say is bullshit. Writing peoples names on the comments on indymedia, where cops and fascists fuck around all the time is an idiotic and piece of shit move, if you know my name, you probably have my contacts too so you could have just contacted me to say this instead of trying to doxx me. I can already assume who you are but I am not going to say it here because I am not you. Next time you can write me directly instead of hiding your coward ass behind anonymity of indymedia and trying to doxx me and blame me for stuff I didn't even fucking do :)
Total bullshit your comment!
Total bullshit your comment! Let's kick out rich white leftists instead of a revolutionary migrant... goodbye ????
Haha stop responding to
Haha stop responding to yourself [person X]
While i think it's a good
While i think it's a good thing this is now out in the open i really hope the person that was harmed won't read the text [person X] wrote as it will cause (imo) more harm. This text has nothing positive to contribute to a process accept it makes people aware that [person X] has raped, hidden this and then lied about it.
The rest of the text should not have been written let alone published.
The text [person X] wrote has nothing of self critisism let alone self punishment. The whole thing reads as an 'i had to write this but im a victim myself and therfore ill try to wriggle myself out of taking responsability and accountabillity and people should be feeling sorry for me in this situation as it is something that is happening to me'. Someone else already posted a very detailed text about this, so i won't go into that further.
[person X], taking such an inactive roll in this situation and trying to frame it as something that you have not actively done but it is something that overcame you shows you have a lot of work to do (and, imo should not have written this text yet because you are not able to take responsabillity, let alone in a public statement).
Being in a process of taking responabillity and being accountable has two main goals: first, the person that was harmed has to be safe. Second; the person that caused harm should work together with people to become aware of the harm the have caused so it will not happen again and do the work neccecary for that. Now, this text can actually cause more harm for the person that was harmed.
[person X], you have been very vocal about everything you felt was wrong in the dutch scene, the world and how this affected you in a negative way. It is now time to take a step back from those battles and look whitin yourself. Working on deep and dark pieces of ourself are very diffucult and being in your situation (a migrant) it might be harder. However that is not an excuse to let this go or ignore it further. I really hope you will be able to take some of the energy of fighting repression to work on yourself, hopefully with the help of people that are able to support a guide you in this difficult work.
I am sorry [person X] must deal
I am sorry [person X] must deal with these stuff. & I am sorry whites can't understand him. Whites are never our friends. I am sorry [person X]. You gave everything to struggle & now some whites destroys you.
Ahh, poor [person X], probably
Ahh, poor [person X], probably replying to their own statement :( Yes indeed! it's all about whites within the movement and not about the fact that you are a fucking rapist whose narcisicism makes them still try to get themselves out of this situation instead just to shut the fuck up and handle not being on the spotlight for a second. And what exactly did you give to the movement? Believe me I know your kind well, I have seen people like you who commodified their experiences in the struggle and it was all about them and their names. Making big statements and signing up with their fucking names on it, enjoying being 'the most radical' so that they can use it to establish power over other people. And the fucking entitlement that is all over this statement...PS: I am a woman of color, I know the dynamics and the patriarchy in the region that you're talking about and it does not give you a pass, so I dare you to call it 'whites destroying the mighty [person X] who gave 'sooo much' to the struggle'. Just get over yourself...
This response is gold. and
This response is gold. and everyone that still defends this piece of shit needs to be kicked out of the scene as well.
Hahahah U write/U respond
Hahahah U write/U respond yourself. U fuck off white piece of shit. U all fukin racist.
Er zullen ongetwijfeld veel
Er zullen ongetwijfeld veel meer verkrachtingen en mishandelingen en pesterijen zijn allemaal weggestopt niemand gaat naar de autoriteiten het is als een cult die zogenaamde Anarchistische scenes die beweren de wijsheid in pacht te hebben en dat ook wel met geweld naar buiten toe uitdragen. Shame. Schadevergoedingen claims die er zijn bij de Rooms Katholieke kerk in kader seksueel geweld wanneer voor het eerst in kader seksueel en ander geweld in " Anarchistische scenes ?! Schandalen komen nooit naar buiten bij die zgn " Anarchisten ". Vaak schimmig randgebeuren in de rafelranden kraakpanden waar je welkom bent als je meehuilt met de wolven in het bos ook al ben je bijv. een verkrachter of een oorlogsmisdadiger je kan onderduiken bij dei " Anarchisten " . Geen achtergrond check ïk ben een vluchteling is genoeg.
Bro don't try to educate
Bro don't try to educate whait feminists they won't get it! Whait feminism = fascism
Ach ja, de"week van Internationale Solidariteit"
well, now I finally know why it was just me in front of the Dutch embassy in Brussels showing solidarity....
I personally already had issues with them, but thought to support even a section of anarchism i have my own views upon.
It would have been nice though to have known beforehand they were a rapist, had I known, I would have not bothered.
My solidarity is with their rape victim.
However, here is something else to ponder upon:
not only do I detect a strong odor of Maoist influence in their so-called "self criticism and self-punishment", I also feel my stomach turn at the first NNs (anon) reaction.
Is this really how we want to deal with these kind of issues?
Is there no room what so ever to deal with someone who seems to be trying to take their responsibilities, their arguments being flawed or not?
With so-called "comrades" like this, who needs enemies?
Everybody should be safe
[person X] you blame yourself in this article and I believe you do. Life has been very hard to you in your early years. Take time to heal. I will be on your side as a comrade to support you in this healing stage if you want. Everybody should be safe. So do you. Take care. I care. <3
No, problem is he does not
No, problem is he does not blame himself. He takes a part responsibility, and then immediately after takes it back because he too is a victim of the situation. Please read the first response on this piece. This is classic gaslighting but what do you expect from a classic narcissist.
Let's wear [person X]'s shoes. His
Let's wear [person X]'s shoes. His situation is difficulter than any of us but he's not still blaming others,even so-called his enemies. publishing a text like that isn't easy specially in his situation. **A little fairness is not bad**
Where does [person X] blame
Where does [person X] blame himself? Because I can't find that anywhere in his text. The only thing they are sorry about is the lying and hiding was unsuccessful.
[person X]
They did blam themselve. Text is full of political self-criticism. [person X] is a political person it was expected they'll write politically and not everyone understands.
Hahahah PLEASE stop
Hahahah PLEASE stop responding to yourself [person X]
clearly some stuff happened!
clearly some stuff happened! Anyone who's accused for sexual assault just denied everything & just blamed victims. Can't you see [person X] didn't do that at all. This kind of reaction is appreciated. He is only one who took clear responsibility. if we fuck him others who's accused for sexual assault will believe denying is a best way to deal. [person X] broke this taboo, instead of fucking him let's proof to others [person X] did right way to deal.
[person X] llied multiple times
[person X] llied multiple times when he was confronted. Also, he is literally a rapist. No room for that. Total piece of shit human.
Fuck off racist. He's not.
Fuck off racist. He's not.
He says it himself in the
He says it himself in the statement. What's wrong with you.
Privilege whites accused and
Privilege whites accused and judges a middle eastian migrant, isn't beautiful? White colonial mind never stops.
[person X] is a fucking rapist
[person X] is a fucking rapist
And you're a fukin racist!
And you're a fukin racist!
White mind: victim mean
White mind: victim mean privilege whites who do nothing but accuse non-white migrants. Jajajajajajajaja you guys are so stupid.
Verkrachting dat is
Verkrachting dat is Strafrecht. Is er al aangifte gedaan bij de politie ? Zo nee waarom niet ? Eigenrichting is barbaars vind ik. Dat verkrachting aangiftes niet goed worden afgehandeld en er zelden een veroordeling volgt in Nederland is ook iets wat niet genoeg onder de aandacht kan. Ook daarom aangifte doen. Aangifte in Griekenland ? Het is toch maar een schimmig zooitje die zogenaamde " Anarchistische " scenes waar iedereen maar zn gang kan gaan. " I came from middle east, where the patriarchal culture dominate everything, and there is no real education about patriarchy or sexism. The differences between cultures in west and Middle East are probably a part of the reasons that I have done many mistakes in my political life in west. The life and especially the political life of a person who comes to the West..... " Dit zou geen stand houden voor een rechtbank hoe wel ik geen jurist of advocaat ben. Het klinkt ook als the devil made me do it . Blijkt maar weer dat je je als vrouw en als man verre moet houden van die " Anarchistische " clubjes waar alleen het recht van de sterkste heerst. Zulke grote idealen die zelf benoemde Anarchisten de realiteit is anders blijkt maar weer.
Ah damn, you are really sick
Ah damn, you are really sick [person X]. And I am the same woman who responded to one of the things that you kept posting pretending to be someone else. Surprise surprise, it doesn't take a genius to recognize someone's writing style :)
I am not white so, don't go ahead and claim to be attacked by whites. Don't you try to use the oppression we face as people of color to save your rapist ass. Should we compete our struggles in life? Do I get to do a lot of more harm and get away with it more easily because I experienced everything you claimed to experience, plus lived under the patriarchy of that region that you mention in your shameless statement to get a pass, which turned you to an entitled narcissistic and me to a traumatized person?
It is not about white feminists or whites trying to destroy a middle eastern immigrant. As a Middle Eastern woman myself I'd pretty much like to see you shut up and know your place, you have no right to claim being oppressed by whites while you literally have multiple assult and rape charges. You are not allowed to play that card, you are not allowed to use the systemic oppression we face as a means to your end.
And the funny thing, as someone who is terribly familiar with your type of personality, I would say you only got this far (believe me someone like you would be spotted right away back at home) because white people among the movement that you claim to be destroying you probably didn't wanna offend you, maybe trying to be (overly)cautious about their privilege or the cultural difference made it a bit more difficult for them to spot your shitty personality (it's not their fault though, it is you who took advantage of that). And consider yourself lucky that you were not exposed among one of the movements of people of color where your 'poor' ass was not oppressed by white people, because you wouldn't just be kicked out, not only you would have no courage to write such horrible statement but you would face such consequences that you wouldn't have to fake self-punish yourself.
Stop trying to manipulate your way out of this, just stfu and accept the fact that what kind of a shit you are is out there.
transparency and fair trial?
The publication of this text is a major step forward. as it aknowledges that something has happened at all. Very often in such cases, no public and transparent discussion happens at all either way.
Still the statement is quite onesided. And while it is not even a defence but rather a guilty plead, the community at large learns very little of what might or might not have happened. Note that this is not the accused's fault at this stage, but due to the accusers silence on the matter.
At this stage, I would really like to know what exactly [person X] has done to whom, independent of how he or his accusers feel about it.
Leaving this text without a reply stating facts rather than opinions, feelings and what not is not much more than a coverup.
I don't care if [person X] feels guilty or not. I want to know what happened!
In such regards the liberal democracies and their court are far ahead of the 'anarchists', who seem to be stuck in shame and rage
This is a super problematic
This is a super problematic response. You want to have the accusers (VICTIMS/SURVIVORS) speak up about the traumatizing events that happened to them?
The statement really reads more as a defence, but it poses as a quilty plead. Do you not notice everytime a sliver of guilt is admitted, it's taken back in the next sentence?
He is literally a rapist. As a community at large we have to have a zero tolerance position on this. And he is guilty, so why even bother harrassing the survivors to relive the trauma?
Remember Kwinten too though? A lot of his survivors actually got traumatized even more after the failed accountabiliy process.
scrutiny ?
If we do not know beyond the level of rage and shame what actually happenend, and the only thing published is a 'defence posing as a guilty plead', any 'verdict' ( like 'rapist') is not more than a biased opinion.
It's not up to the accuser or the accused to determine 'guilt' or 'innoncence' , but to the community around them. There is also an obligation for this community to examine the facts , weigh the circumstances, discuss implications openly and then reach an informed concensus on how to proceed.
And yes, the accuser has to be explicit about accusations, and the accused has a right to a defence beyond a self critique style of gulty plead plead.
Anything else is not aimed at protecting the traumatized victim and survivor but the culture and reputation of the community incapable of facing what happens within it. This omerta style way of handling thing is not revolutionary at all, but the behaviour of a gang.
Not enough "evidence"
No one is canceling anyone. [person X] himself is admitting to having raped someone.
How much more evidence do you need?
Non of this needs to be discussed publicly but it looks like [person X] might have been afraid that one of the (multiple!) people he has harmed & raped would have published something sooner or later and this statement is a lousy attempt at damage control.
if you care so much about accountability and transformative justice maybe you could start an accountability group yourself and get in touch with [person X]?
Please. I am sick and tired and don't want to have to present the evidence of getting fucked up by him in this indymedia trial. thanks.
Do your own research, read between the lines. Reach out to people.
yes
yes, you are right, last NN. No, i do not defend rapists. No, I do not need to hear from both sides, yes, i support the people women man who suffered from [person X], i also was made a clown supporting him
But I do need an anarchists free space, where we can discuss these kind of events, just so we can grow stronger together at dealing with male domination, rape, and al that, without the whole you bad, we good reactions
Give some sort of room for discussion between comrades, whatever that means, , while I kick my dog.... sarcasm alert
in public
This IS the accountablity group. Making these things PUBLIC is the process any serious political movement needs to have.
This is also not about [person X] but about the weird culture of secrecy that such events in the movement always end up being shrouded in.
This is also not about evidence of what he did or didn't do, but about scrutinizing the information based on which someone is branded a rapist or (as it happens more often) exonorated from being one,
If [person X] was a civilian, his victim would have gone to the police, he might have gotten arrested and there would be a public trial where everybody who wants to could hear and afterwards examine the 'evidence' and decide for themselves if they agree or not with the verdict.
This approach of handling stuff 'internally' makes us look like the catholic church and their mishandling of child abuse.
I agree with this one. Also I
I agree with this one. Also I don't think there is any kind of guilty plead in this text. It is rather a series of lousy attempts to manipulate the situation. Plus transformative justice requires someone to truly take responsibility and it needs to empower the victim in the process. Nothing [person X] has done, including this statement indicates anything about truly reflecting on their own behaviour and showing a genuine interest to the experience of the victim. In fact shamelessly trying to make themselves a victim. As someone who has been victim of abuse and sexual violence before, if I read this kind of statement from the abuser, it would enrage me. It is an attempt of self-preservation. Also as I wrote before on another comment, I still think this person cannot handle not being on the spotlight for a second and there are clear signs of narcissistic personality. Claiming to be voiceless but not wasting a second to go ahead and write a statement with big words. Seriously how is it not obvious that even now, they are trying to dominate the narrative, not giving space to the victims at all, claiming they never INTENTIONALLY raped or assaulted, trying to invalidate victims experience all over again? Gaslighting and attempts of manipulation is all over the text, let alone trying to distract from the issue pointing fingers to people and irrelevant incidents to get away with RAPE. And it is not canceling, it is seeing through the problematic personality out there trying to wiggle their way out by throwing things that they think would save their ass. Having more of a consciousness and defence against the people like [person X] is not cancel culture or omerta style as it is claimed. It is making sure that everyone feels safe in these spaces and you are well-equipped to handle the attempts of manipulation. Anyone who reads this statement and does not recognize the intention behind it is either symphatizing with the perpetrator, or at best is really naive and didn't have enough experience in life to read between the lines.
restorative justice
Restorative justice by definition requires all participants to think beyond categories of victim and perpetrator and certainly guilt and punishment. It also requires people to face the facts and demystify perceptions. This last bit is mainly for the community at large.
What strikes me most in the reactions so far but also how [person X] was perceived before it, is that there seems to be no middle ground between hero and villain. People were organizing protests to support the guy as if he was bakunin reincarnated, only to damn him as a coniving hypocryte a minute later.
This approach reflects perfectly the lines of black and white (or red ;) approach that is common in the movement and one of it's biggest flaws. from the 99% and 1% to the end of the world end that is nigh in many forms, all in big slogans on massive banners, drowning out any kind of reflection.
Please consider the fact that such incidents are not only acts of individuals but also a product of movement culture at large: 'heroes' are often the objects of
mystification and therefore quite irrational sexual attraction, which in turn will make them believe that they are irresistable.
Turning those who then act on such misconceptions into 'villains' will not prevent the next 'hero' the cheering crowd lifts on the shield to act any different. Demystifying the circumstances might though, starting with determining what has actually happen.
Resorative justive does not sympatize with the perpetrator nor with the victim, but empathizes with both in order to understand and change the cisrumstances as to prevent similar things to happen in the future, It does not seek punishment , revenge or redemption, but remedy
Okaay, so let's call it those
Okaay, so let's call it those who cause the harm and those who are hurt, instead of calling victim and perpetrator if this is what's gonna make us think outside of black and white thinking. I agree that making a hero out of someone who has past experiences and image they manage to use as a way to make a name for themselves creates power imbalance and possibly room for situations like this. It is a problem within the movement not only in the Netherlands or Greece but all over the world. It is a result of a distorted view on the idea of struggle. There needs to be a discussion about these stuff and definitely the circumstances need to be changed to prevent this happening.
I am not trying to claim this is what you say, nor it is an answer to contradict your points, because I agree with most of what you say, they are very valid points. Honestly, personally I have never perceived them as hero, because some things about them and their behaviour were so out there but anyway. I am just kinda thinking out loud in way. I still think there is not enough understanding and agreement on how to handle individual cases in practice. Because remedy does not always mean not having a side on things when the other party is apparently sided. Under some circumstances, a remedy means cutting down the cancerous limb to save the rest of your body. As far as I know and practiced so far (not claiming to be an expert on it) what restorative justice definitely requires is responsibility from the party that cause the harm and should consider the safety and empowerment of those who suffered harm first. What this person is trying to do is trying to be politically smart to actually defer responsibility (meh, I don't think they are even very smart about it though), and it is not just only about what actually happened but the choices they intentionally made aftermath. I think at this point emphatizing with this person will just reinforce the entitlement they have and enable them keep doing what they did (maybe a bit more manipulative and smart way), because I saw people turning to smarter abusers after a poorly handled process of accountability, and [person X]'s words and actions has a strong resemblance to those people. We can understand the conditions that gave room to this kind of person. In fact we can try to understand all the reasons behind all the choices, I can make a sense why someone chooses to be let's say alt-right, understanding circumstances does not mean not taking a side. It gives you a perspective to change things at a broader level, it does not give someone a pass because they are too 'victims' of the conditions if the other party's actions does not indicate that they are genuinely on the same page and open to change and reflection and there's still hope that they somehow belong to this community. Intentionally hiding, lying and manipulating, then writing a statement which has obvious lies in it, for example claiming he leaves the movement when he is actually kicked out, acting as if they make it public themselves while it is actually already quite widely known, trying to distract from the actual issue by talking about irrelevant stuff, when they could just say they take the full responsibility and open to be held accountable and suggestions from the community to change, they keep throwing buts and ifs and excuses, sorry but this is really problematic. also the timing, if this statement was written before they failed in their efforts to hide all these things, even though it has a a lot of problematic stuff in my idea, I guess I would still think it was at least an effort. So at this point what is gonna make the world a bit of a better place? Where should we take a stance? And what happened actually matters, but what is also important is the attitude afterwards I think. There were some processes I witnessed and some I was a part of, there were people within the movement who worked with the government (most of the time threatened and bribed folks who were not actually fascists) and got exposed (in another country). What they did caused a great harm, but if they were sincere with their intention to change and take responsibility, there was a great effort to not go to the punitive direction, some of these folks changed and contributed to the community a lot. What they did and say didn't matter as much as their attitude afterwards. Also goes for people who confessed under pressure, though it is not exactly the same thing, what they actually did at that point was not the focus. I am definitely not saying what happened does not matter, but you cannot just reduce it to a series of events that caused the harm to the individuals who made these accusations, but a way of thinking, acting and the actions taken along the way. These are tricky stuff that does not always have a definite answer or agreement, but where do we draw the line when someone tries to take advantage of the idea of restorative justice and bend it to preserve their own interests? Because this happens and is a very high possibility in practice. To me, at some point what we call as restorative justice just operates like rehabilitative justice if we don't have strong enough opinions and stance about what we tolerate and what we don't.
engagement and reflections
Thank you very much for this thoughtful answer. Your piece is in stark contrast to most of the other reactions in this thread so far.
I think that due process (for lack of a better term I borrow from liberal democratic discourse here) is a precondition to justice, restorative or other, and due process guarantees the rights of the accused to an effective defense, even if it means lying at some stage, or taking control of the narrative to their advantage.
Justice also requires statements made by those who cause the harm and those who are hurt at face value initially and scrutinizing whatever they say based on what is said , not who said it and second guessing ulterior motives from the beginning on.
Such requirements make justice cumbersome and maybe emotionally unsatisfactory on the short term, but on the long run force all of us to confront what is happening in our midst. To be exact, it makes us openly discuss what sort sexual behaviour is acceptable and what not.
As we know (and not since yesterday), sexuality at large is political and requires explicit discourse and debate, in theory but also in practice when dealing with misbehaviour. Simply exiling ('cutting of the canceraous limb to save the whole body' is straight out of the BIBLE, mind you) people is a very convenient way to put a lid on a can of worms, that should be openend and dealt with.
Last not least: the fact that we have this discussion here at all is due to the fact the [person X] published his text, not to the gossip and whispered accusations that lead up to it. So lets be brave and face the music as revoltunionary anti authoritarian socialist with rational argument, not as some (very reactionary) kneejerking lynch mob
thanks
thanks Kiviet and NN, for bringing some depth to this necessary discussion.
It is what i originally asked (see above), to have less of an agressive lynchmob mentality, and more of an open discussion, to learn from the facts, and to maybe move forward as anarchists of all varieties.
Both your contributions, in tone as well as in arguments, do exactly that, so again, thanks for taking the time.
It even gives an "old dog" like myself, who has side-lined himself from, and is no longer firmly embedded in any anarcho scene, new insights, and stuff to think about.
I can only hope this discussion will encourage others to also reflect, and add their part to this discussion.
Thanks for the reply. I
Thanks for the reply. I didn’t know that this sentence was from the Bible, I wasn’t exposed to Christianity much as I grew up in Muslim majority country and I am still quite ignorant about the whole religion. But my point is whether it’s from the Bible or not, there is a truth in it because sometimes in practice, life requires tough decisions, there are definitely situations where you need to make a choice even though it might mean you do something that you wish you wouldn’t have to in an ideal world. So the point I am trying to make is, excluding people might be necessary in some cases where the person avoids responsibility and their existence in the movement means people don’t feel safe anymore provided that additional steps are taken to ensure the likelihood of the similar things happening. But I agree it shouldn’t be seen as the sole thing to do and overshadow the need for discussion on the broader conditions.
introspection
If [person X] should be or not excluded can only be determined after it is clear what has actually happenened. Him saying 'i did it' (or 'i did not') is not enough. Nor is the rumour mill saying 'we have heard he did something and we believe it'. We need to figure out what he did exactly first.
Either way, the issue at hand is that people clearly fear the incident's details to be made public will shine a bad light on the movement (or something like that) and therefore would prefer to handle the affair in secret.
This way, the dreaded damage is not only not avoided, but made far worse, the more as initially legitimate concerns (not making people relive a trauma) are misused as an excuse for a coverup out of fear for collective shame.
This is not the way a rationalist movement should behave. Just like with every atrocity in the past, from the nazi concentration camps to the torture chambers of pinochet), the details need to be made visible and perpetrators AND victims need to be named.
No they don't. Why the fuck
No they don't. Why the fuck do you want to know about the details of a rape? Are you understanding what it is you are even saying?
You are not entitled to the details of someone else's trauma.
Agree with this last comment.
Agree with this last comment. This discussion is completely derailing because some people think some commenters aren't civilised enough. They are fucking angry, and fucking rightfully so.
People tried to do an accountability process, with [person X], before the accusations were confirmed. It didn't work out, because [person X] denied every guilt. They were discrete about this, correctly, since you don't want to falsely accuse someone - especially not someone in a precarious situation like [person X].
But then, only in July, it was found out by people who - also discreetly - talked to the traumatised victims, that the accusations were actually true. When confronted, [person X] still fucking denied it. He said he would write a statement, and then didn't for a full month. He just disappeared to come back with this piece of shit text.
People are allowed to be angry, survivors should not be forced to speak out because some white cis men on the internet want to know the details before believing survivors.
Nope.
The people that need to know know. Some people might not want to put there names and the details of what happend out there. Power to those that want and feel capable of it. but Some of those affected might not want to have to engage in some kind of ritual of performative victemhood. But more often then not that is the only way to be taken seriously, to share all the intimate details of how & when the violation of our bodies took place. It should not be a requirement of bring taken seriously though.
No I think that is exactly
No I think that is exactly the wrong approach that should be avoided. Wasn't it you who discussed restorative justice and how it should heal the community and stuff? Either way, discussing the accountability and restorative justice and it's limitations does not mean there is a room for any kind of approach that disempowers the victims. I think this should be among the things that are not tolerated. I am sorry but public accountability does not mean naming victims, or making them do any kind of emotional labor handling these cases. This is such a privileged thing to ask for. I don't know whatever you are coming from with these suggestions, maybe you have close ties with [person X] which might make you inclined to come up with such ideas. But asking for details of a rape case and asking for victims to come forward can only mean one thing to me, that you are concerned with the clearing the name of the perpetrator and not showing a genuine interest or empathy for the victims. It's not about being irrational, it is taking a side and protecting and ensuring the safety of those who are harmed. Is it really too much? I am really surprised because to me it should be given, and discussions over the general problems shouldn't lead to the point where practices that are established to protect those who faced the harm discredited.
and believe I am saying these
and believe I am saying these things as someone who named their abuser, and more or less all the details publicly. Even though I did this because I felt strong enough at the point, it was a very draining and tiring process and there were times I wish I was just silent so that I wouldn't have to deal with all the shit. No victim should be forced to take the emotional burden of the process or 'rehabilitation' of the perpetrator. No one has to give the details of the violence or abuse they face. Asking it in such obvious way shows a lot of entitlement and lack of emphaty to me. And I really tried to explain it in a way where I put all my emotions aside and explain in a emotionally neutral way as possiblr during the whole discussion, because if I go ahead and be emotional and angry( and bear in mind emotion is not something that arises on its own, it is a response to a specific situation based on how you perceive the world and your values, so people are indeed rightfully angry, this does not mean they're wrong because there is an emotional tone to their messages) my first response would be '[person X] should shut the fuck up', but the way you (kiviet i guess) discuss it (with some valid points if I put aside my intuition that these are discussed to clear the name of the perpetrator by you), for a second I thought there might be a bit of room for understanding, however the last post is just really disappointing.
clarifications and empowerment
For the record: I never met [person X], and I don't care about any of the people involved individually. What I do care for is the movement at large and how the handling of such incidents damages credibility in society at large.
If somebody who becomes a figurehead who rallies people for public action is accused of this kind of misbehaviour, handling the affair internally on any level, will be perceived as a coverup or a backstabbing as a result of an (here again) interal powerstruggle by the public at large.
If no verifiable public procedure to determine guilt or innocence is in place, any future campaigners can be accused of similar misbehaviour, whereby the movement will not have the tools to react and answer in an effective way.
Besides these outside threats, the lack of being able to verify an accusation without having to take not even the victims but the word of 'someone who discretely talked to someone else' for granted, make it all to easy not only to accuse and condemn, but also to exonorate.
As for empowerment: there is no shame in being the victim of rape, torture or oppression. Those are injustices. Empowerment starts with making that clear. Only then can the victims themselves effectively act in their interest.
Much of all that hinges on the mixture lust, shame and rage attached to sexuality and power. As lonmg as this pattern remains unaknowledged, incidents likes this one will occur
It's not accusations anymore.
It's not accusations anymore. He says himself hes rapist. are you white cis male? you sound like one
like you say, you do not know
like you say, you do not know [person X] and you do not know the people that were personally involved in this. feel free to make up your own opinion. But for all that matters those close to both [person X] and those affected by his behaviour know enough. the only reason for this to be public is so people can be warned and know to stay the fuck away from the narcissistic lying piece of shit rapist.
Yes, it is important to make sure that we are sure about the alligations being real. (that's probably why it took so long for people to realise and took the words of those affected seriously- because this person turned out to also be a very skilled liar and manipulator- like most abusers & just taking one look at [person X]'s "apology" should make this obvious)
" As for empowerment: there
" As for empowerment: there is no shame in being the victim of rape, torture or oppression. Those are injustices. Empowerment starts with making that clear. Only then can the victims themselves effectively act in their interest."
- yeah it's really empowering to be told what you should do and how you should deal with being raped :0. STFU.
This is the problem with accountability. You get hurt once and than you get hurt again by the fucking whole 'community' that is supposed to be there for you, but really you are asked to do a lot of fucking work for a fucking rapist.
Fuck off
Besides these outside
Besides these outside threats, the lack of being able to verify an accusation without having to take not even the victims but the word of 'someone who discretely talked to someone else' for granted, make it all to easy not only to accuse and condemn, but also to exonorate.
No, victims (or survivors) can communicate through anyone they feel comfortable with, they don't have to be the ones who got the word out. The practices and the movement in this particular country is a bit unfamiliar to me, but as far as I see, it is more or less the same . Again, putting that kind of burden to a probably already traumatized individual is not okay (it's not just not okay, it is wrong in every sense -ideologically, politically-, just can't get how it's not obvious?). I guess you really had a trauma free life and it makes it difficult for you to emphatize. This , 'movement over everything', 'caring about the movement,' 'not really understanding why they should be traumatized it is injustice, there is no shame' talk reminds of some people who were 'too political' to care about what might an individual going through, and surprise surprise, all cis hetero males. It is a common sense and in some cases established and protected right for anyone who's harmed from a structural power imbalance within a movement to not have to take the emotional burden and the effort of the accountability process. What you are asking is actually asking to take a step back and going backwards. Even here with this discussion, as someone who survived abuse and violence, it is not my responsibility to do your emotional labor trying to make you emphatize with the experiences of others, while it should have been you trying to understand (based on your statement about how much you care for the movement, I guess it should be your responsibility), but I took my time because I wanted to see if there was a room for some communication but this will be my last post. And honestly i don't get what you need to know more in this case, why the obsession and entitlement about the details of someone else's trauma? There are a lot of people who had more than one incident with [person X], or people who confirm what a manipulative narcissistic liar they were, and most importantly there are multiple charges of assault and rape against them, and this horrible statement on top of eveything?
Much of all that hinges on the mixture lust, shame and rage attached to sexuality and power. As lonmg as this pattern remains unaknowledged, incidents likes this one will occur
I remember you talking about mystification and creating heros and stuff, which is still a thing everywhere. But with what you previously said, combined with this one, there is this slippery slope where it is almost going to the victim blaming direction. None of this gives [person X] a pass for being a rapist, they are the one who did it, not anyone else, and no one is telling not to have any discussions over sexuality and power and close this whole issue forever. But it is becoming a distraction from the actual incident at this point and turning to a strong denial of the experiences of those who suffered the harm.
Most of these patterns are long time acknowledged, and discussions take place everywhere around the world (I can argue there is probably more discussions going on than the actions taken in total). Discussions and acknowledging the patterns alone do not make the centuries old patriarchy go away and disappear like that. Taking a side and empowering the ones who is suffering from it will contribute. Not patronizing people on how to deal with their trauma and respect the amount they wanna get involved in the process will contribute. Not putting the responsibility of 'proving' themselves will contribute. These incidents will keep occuring if we can't acknowledge the patterns in our own reactions, if we keep dismantling the all the structural reasons and patterns while we forget to be aware of our own position in life , can't relate to other people's experiences if it is not similar to ours, and won't take the necessary action because there is some internal resistance stemming from the privileges we subconsciously hold on to.
@kiviet you clearly never had
@kiviet you clearly never had the experience of being traumatized. what gives you the right to force victims to talk. its not a cover up for fear of collective shame, there is enough reflection going on already in this whole thread about how to handle this next time. shame on you.
Nog steeds relevant: De grote
Nog steeds relevant: De grote reacties-op-misbruik-in-de-scene bullshit bingo. Wie telt er mee?
https://www.indymedia.nl/node/49146
vreemd genoeg...
...is die laatste bullshit bingo bijdrage hier eigenlijk precies op zijn of haar plek.
Ik vind Kiviets bijdrages bijzonder relevant, bijdragend aan deze noodzakelijke discussie, maar ook ik vond zijn of haar laatste bijdrage, waarin hij zij neerschreef dat ook de slachtoffers (of zoals sommigen hier liever hebben, overlevenden) met naam en toenaam genoemd moeten worden moeilijk te verteren. Ik hoop dat hij of zij bedoelde dat feiten naar buiten gecommuniceerd moeten worden, niet namen?
Wel fijn te zien dat er hier zo betrokken gereageerd word, en dat dit onderwerp nu ook op indy besproken word.
Aan alle door [person X] beschadigde (mag ik dat zo zeggen? ben zelf getraumatiseerd CIS man) mensen wens ik liefde en kracht
duidelijkheid , niet identificatie
Uiteraard gaat het niet om naam en toenaam van de overlevende, maar om verifieerbaarheid van het verhaal. Ik vindt het gewoon raar dat van ons verwacht wordt, dat we wat daar gezegd wordt zomaar moeten aannemen. Dit te meer omdat we toch willen weten met zijn allen vanaf waar en waarom het mis is gegaan.
Als nou iemand van de kant van de overlevende naar voren stap en zegt: 'zo en zo is dat gegaan en dat was mijn perceptie ervan' en dan iemand van de kant van de dader (of de dader zelf zoals nu) dat ook doet, dan kan direkt iedereen zien hoe het speciefieke incident in elkaar zit en de nodige conclusies trekken voor zulke situaties in het algemeen
En als we willen voorkomen dat zoiets blijft gebeuren, moeten het het toch echt over sexuele mores in de beweging en daarbuiten hebben
Hou OP met mensen chanteren
Hou OP met mensen chanteren om naar buiten te treden met hun verhaal. Kiviet en nn15, check your cis white male privilege eens. Jullie blijven terugkomen met dezelfde shit.
?????
excuse me? WTF, do you even know how to read? Waar chanteer ik hier mensen?
Kom effe van je anonieme hobbelpaardje en lees nog es terug kameraadje.
Ik kan ook stomme one/liners schrijven, net als jij:
Veel geschreeuw en weinig wol
En ter verdere aanvulling:
En ter verdere aanvulling:
laatste NN is kennelijk getriggerd door het verzoek om meer duidelijkheid om de discussie in de scene tot verdere inzichten te brengen.
Ik hoop dat hij of zij begrijpt dat feiten een discussie, en daarmee de in de discussie betroken gemeenschap, verder kan helpen naar de toekomst toe.
Painful, pijnlijk? ZEKER
Nodig? HELL YEAH
En dat heeft weinig met mijn CIS zijn (whatever dat dan ook moge betekenen) te maken
I am in for the long run, niet voor modieuze "vandaag denken we dat je zo moet zijn".
Zelfs ouderen zoals ik kunnnen bijleren, maar daarvoor is discussie nodig.
Kan je dat niet aan, ga dan lekker terug je slaapkamer in: ik zelf weet dat je, zodra je je neus buiten laat zien, getriggerd, geIiriteerd, en niet goed kan worden vanwege het gedrag van anderen, of gewoon het systeem waarin wij leven.
Deal with it
Voor zover ik het begrepen
Voor zover ik het begrepen heb, is het nieuwe dogma in de beweging / de linkse scene dat de slachtoffers van seksueel geweld altijd geloofd moeten worden, dat hun verhaal nooit betwijfeld mag worden en dat beschuldigingen ook anoniem gedaan mogen worden. De redenatie hierachter is, dat het slechts zeer zelden zou gebeuren dat veronderstelde daders vals beschuldigd worden. Dit in tegenstelling tot het aantal daders dat ermee weg komt en ongestraft z'n gang kan gaan.
Overigens is seksueel geweld voor mij wel degelijk een serieus en groot probleem. Maar ik heb wel vraagtekens bij de manier waarop mensen dit probleem in zo'n superklein wereldje als de linkse scene denken op te kunnen lossen. In de burgerlijke rechtspraak en strafvervolging kun je ervan uitgaan dat een verdachte bij twijfel eerder vrijuit gaat, zodat je het risico verkleint dat onschuldigen bestraft worden. Volgens het nieuwe linkse dogma is iedere twijfel aan het verhaal van een slachtoffer per definitie schadelijk en slecht.
Dat de persoon die nu deze discussie heeft veroorzaakt niet helemaal spoort, geloof ik direct. Zelfs voor een relatieve buitenstaander is zoiets door het volgen van berichten op internet redelijk geloofwaardig. Maar los daarvan geloof ik niet dat de dogmatische aanpak van seksueel misbruik erg positief uitwerkt. We hebben in het verleden al eens gezien hoe iemand uit de scene anoniem werd beschuldigd en zwartgemaakt en dat was niet echt een smakelijke vertoning. Ook worden mensen op een ideologische manier vastgepind in een muurvaste categorie: ofwel je bent een verkrachter, ofwel je bent een overlever/slachtoffer. Je ziet dat ook in de discussie hierboven in de manier waarop bepaalde woorden met hoofdletters geschreven worden.
Ook al ben ik zelf slachtoffer geweest van seksueel geweld en zou ik mezelf heel goed als een overlever kunnen zien, zijn zulke begrippen me ongelofelijk tegen gaan staan. Wie of wat ik ben is zoveel meer dan zo'n woordje.
Verder zou ik mensen willen waarschuwen om niet al te grote woorden te gebruiken. Transformative justice, ik weet echt niet wat ik me daarbij voor moet stellen. Vroeger hadden we het in de kraakscene ook wel over soja-justitie, omdat mensen er vaak een potje van maakten. Ik ben in de loop der jaren erg sceptisch geworden over het vermogen van zo'n superkleine scene om zelfstandig dingen recht te zetten.
Oh en om af te sluiten met iets wat niet meer hardop gezegd mag worden: het komt echt voor dat veronderstelde slachtoffers valse beschuldigingen uiten. Liefdesverdriet, woede om een verbroken relatie of behoefte aan aandacht ... mensen zijn mensen en doen domme dingen.
Wat nou, risico op valse
Wat nou, risico op valse beschuldiging. De dader zegt dat hij het heeft gedaanMAAR blabla onzinredenen. Er zijn geen slachtofferverklaringen meer nodig want het is al duidelijk. Dit is geen power of definition bullshit, dit is bescherming tegen verder trauma.
Ook haha @cismannen die getriggerd zijn omdat ze cismannen worden genoemd en dat ze hun privilege moeten checken.
Ook haha @u, je gaat niet in
Ook haha @u, je gaat niet in op 90 procent van mijn verhaal en het gaat over je hoofd heen dat de discussie hier inmiddels breder is getrokken.
Ja, maar waarom begin je
Ja, maar waarom begin je eigenlijk ergens anders over? we zijn nog lang niet klaar over [person X]. met jouw algemene discussie overschaduw je waar het eigenlijk om gaat. wie ben jij om te besluiten dat de discussie breder getrokken moet worden, volgens mij zijn jullie dat nu met zijn tweetjes en hebben alle andere mensen het nog steeds over [person X] en de overlevers van hem. en over het problematische gedrag van cismannen als het over trauma en misbruik gaat, wat je weer mooi illustreert. start je eigen post ofzo.
Waarom ga je ervan uit dat ik
Waarom ga je ervan uit dat ik een cisman ben? Raar!
En jullie zijn er nog niet over uit wat je met [person X] aan moet? Ook raar.
Altijd fijn om weer eens terug te lezen waarom ik nix mis aan die scene!
En start zelf maar je eigen post ofzo.
HAHA?
Voor zover ik weet was ik het zelf die zei dat ik een cis man zou zijn? En ik weet nog steeds niet wat dat zou moeten
betekenen..
Nogmaals, leer es begrijpend lezen voordat je hier een smug comment achterlaat
De scene
De kleine scene die nog steeds zichzelf consumeert totdat er niemand meer over is. Het is pijnlijk om te zien.
@maikel
geen zorgen, er zijn nog steeds anderen die wat jou is overkomen niet vergeten zijn. Jouw verhaal is net zo belangrijk als wat x-FICKING-x gedaan heeft. Discussie blijft doorgaan, ook al zin er mensen die dat liever niet hebben. Die mensen hebben ofwel geen ruggegraat, ofwel geen valide argumenten.
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